Author Topic: Board game goals  (Read 1051 times)

Benesato

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Board game goals
« on: 02 April, 2011, 01:11:51 »
After spending a lot of time analysing board games and my experiences, both good and bad, of playing a fair few over the years, I've concluded one thing - the goal of the game is probably the biggest determinant for whether I enjoy a game or not.

I bought Nexus Ops a while back, after reading positive reviews on Board Game Geek, and subsequently played a couple of games by myself to learn the rules and see whether it was suitable for playing with the children of some of my friends.  Elements of the gameplay were okay, but what let the game down was its goal - amassing an arbitrary amount of victory points.

That got me thinking about other games with victory points.  Settlers of Catan was fun...until one game in which I was building up a nearly overwhelmingly strong dominance of the playing area, only for someone to win the game out of the blue because they had reached the arbitrary number of victory points.  So they one through focussing on the abstract (victory points), while I lost dismally by focussing on and achieving a strong position according to the theme of the game (expanding and building up an empire).  Twilight Imperium suffers a similar fault in my opinion.

In short, victory points are at best a thematically weak, purely arbitrary goal in a game, and in my experience make playing the game 'properly' (i.e., according to the theme, rather than meta-gaming) a surefire path to failure, and promote formulaic meta-gaming to win.

In contrast, the games that I feel offer a much better goal are pretty much those with a goal consistent with the theme.  Dune offers each faction unique and conflicting ways to win, in addition to winning by control of territory.  Battlestar Galactica offers clear and purely thematic victory conditions for both humans and Cylons.  Talisman has a clear and thematic goal, Dungeonquest has a very clear, thematic, and somewhat personal goa (get the most loot, but also get out alive)l, The Queen's Gambit (based on re-creating the conflicts within Star Wars: The Phantom Menace).

In short, thematically driven, genuine goals are a feature of all the better games I've played.

So that's my perspective.  After analysing my experiences of board games I concluded that games that rely on accumulating an arbitrary amount of victory points (often gained through achieving arbitrary sub-goals within the game) just aren't very fun for me - particularly the players have varying experience levels.  I feel this strongly enough that I would almost rule out buying any board game that is won by victory points.

Any thoughts?  Am I being overly sensitive or shying away from competitiveness, or is my observation that board games that are won through thematic goals more than just a personal preference?  Please chime in.

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Chimera

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #1 on: 09 April, 2011, 08:00:10 »
Yeah - the goal of the game is really important in a game.

I find a lot of games go - look how cool my rules are! And then you are left saying  - How the heck do I win the game.

When teaching players a game I like to state the objectives and victory conditions first.

But then you get a secondary problem - most associated with victory conditions. Most games lack a victory track that have victory conditions. This means players can play without really getting anywhere. Basic Twilight Imperium was very much like this. So you get this skill in experienced players that new players can't match in hiding their true status from others way to easy.

Sounds like I need to play Battlestar Galactica.

Benesato

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #2 on: 18 April, 2011, 12:13:04 »
Could you explain how Twilight Imperium plays out now with the expansion?  Everything I've ever heard about the expansion speaks glowingly about how it's improved the game to no end, but I still feel like I don't get how it actually plays now, and whether it's just done a lot better or plays differently.

Are players still often better off not attacking each other and seeking victory points?
Is it any more or less clear now who's within reach of winning and thus in need of a thumping?
Can you realistically do much about it when a player is close to winning?

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Chimera

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #3 on: 12 May, 2011, 21:16:02 »
The expansion of TI3 improved alot of gameplay elements.

But it still suffers in the extreme from experience = win.

If you sit back and turtle you will loose. Half the game is not visible at any time - so knowledge of what is not visible counts for alot.

I'm not selling it am I :)

Awesome fun if everyone knows the game. but no so much if only half do. My alternate rule set - Dark Empire fixes most of this. Its a bit more "what you see is what you get".

Benesato

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #4 on: 14 May, 2011, 22:27:56 »
After pondering it a bit more, and having watched 2 movies lately with 'twists' that I saw from the first 5 minutes, it got me thinking that board games are bit like movies.  The ending is in many ways the hardest part.  In movies the good guys winning, the romantic comedy couple finally getting it on, or the sci-fi/horror threat leaving an egg/baby/whatever behind for a sequel, are all something we just take for granted even though they're really an obvious and uninspiring solution to ending the story.  And prior to the ending many movies have interesting action, comedic moments, etc - it's just at the ending when they need to be wrapped up nicely, and short of great inspiration a cliched ending seems to be an accepted solution.

Twilight Imperium and many victory-point based board games seem to follow a similar theme.  It's the process of playing through them that's enjoyable, but a lacklustre and uninspiring ending is a solution to the problem of how exactly to bring the enjoyable experience to an end.

Just my thoughts for the day.

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Crotonhurst

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #5 on: 15 May, 2011, 16:23:37 »
Just my $0.02.

The defining problem for anything be it game, movie or book is that a large part of what any player/viewer/reader takes away from the experience is how it ended. If the ending is in some way unsatisfying, irrespective of how good the journey there might be, they are left with a sense (maybe only vague) of disappointment.

But to play devil's advocate here, specifically in the case of board games, there is technically no game if there isn't an end-point/victory condition, be it arbitrary or otherwise.

For example Twilight Imperium SE (TI3) awards victory points for achieving public or private goals. The achievement of these goals can seem at odds with what is occurring in the wider game. You may have attained a dominant position or vast swathe of resources in the game only to lose to the guy who quietly accrued victory points without engaging opponents in battle.

In that case the failing is on your part, for either not understanding the rules, or somehow thinking that your achievement is greater than those recognised as achievements by the rules. Penny Arcade also expressed this opinion recently in regards to people missing the purpose of King of the Hill modes in various FPS.

As distasteful as arbitrary goals determining victory conditions might be, board game designers would most likely take into consideration the amount of time it takes to actually complete a game. While I fully agree that in TI3 it might be much more satisfying to win because I had managed to amass superior tech and fleets and I have ravaged the homeworlds of my foes, I am sure that I don't have three contiguous days to do this.

My experience has been that even 8 hours is barely enough time to complete a game of TI3 with 5+ players. Factor the co-ordination required to get all the players at the same location and you could imagine that in the real world it would take weeks if not months to actually complete a single game. IMO as much as I might enjoy the game, that doesn't seem like enough of a payoff.

As Chimera has already pointed out, by the creation of his Dark Empire rules set, if you don't like the rules, you can always change them to remove whatever you feel is a blocker to enjoyment. To quote that guy from Pirates of the Caribbean "Less actual rules, more like guidelines".

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Benesato

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #6 on: 15 May, 2011, 22:21:26 »
Quote
"You may have attained a dominant position or vast swathe of resources in the game only to lose to the guy who quietly accrued victory points without engaging opponents in battle...In that case the failing is on your part, for either not understanding the rules, or somehow thinking that your achievement is greater than those recognised as achievements by the rules."

That illustrates a large part of my point, though.  The rules of most games follow a theme, whereas victory conditions are often an artificial and arbitrarily created end-point that fails to be consistent with the theme.  If you have amassed a dominant position in the game then why have you not won?  You have not won because, according to a set of artificial and arbitrary rules that exist outside the theme of the game, some other guy has achieved the conditions required to end the game - not really to win it, you could say.

There will always be 5 gazillion arguments like:
  • Learn the rules better if you lose all the time.
  • Learn to play better if you lose all the time.
  • Play a different class if you don't like X.
  • If you think X is overpowered why don't you play it?
  • Just use X skills (the ones every single player takes because the rest suck, even though you want to not be a clone)
  • The enemy team also has heavy tanks, so it's balanced (just because both teams have Queens, Rooks, Knights and Bishops, doesn't make it any more fun to be the pawns in Chess, and the same goes for the tier-matchings in World of Tanks)
  • STFU noob

So there seem to be 3 common positions taken.
  • Arguments like those above
  • Complaining
  • Apathy/Silence

What I'm doing is trying to break the problem down and understand it, look for solutions, and look for the common themes in what does and doesn't work with an aim to improving things over time, which none of the three common positions on the matter achieve.  Chimera's house-ruled amendments to Twilight Imperium follow the right kind of thinking (and much of how I analyse games is the direct influence of Chimera), and what I'm trying to do is look at it more holistically and abstractly, not pertaining specifically to any one game, but in terms of fundamental principles.

So the argument that the failing is on a player's part for not understanding rules or for having a false sense of their achievement leads to a bunch of fundamental questions in terms of designing a game.

Above, you're essentially asserting that the onus is on players to invoke meta-game thinking to assess their level of achievement, outside of playing the game for enjoyment (which presumably involves thinking thematically the rest of the time).  Doesn't sound as fair when I put it in those tems, but I think that's a fair summary of the idea.  From the point of view of designing and analysing games I think it's fair enough to make that design choice.  I think we can all agree that victory conditions for games like this, short of marathon gaming sessions where the game is played to the death, are bloody hard.  But I think it should be a conscious and calculated choice, whereas I suspect in 99% of cases it's just a default solution to tack victory point victory conditions onto a game for lack of any better ideas (just like the movie endings I mentioned).

I don't have a solution to the Twilight Imperium problem, I haven't played the expansion or the house-rules, and it's been ages since I played the game at any rate.  One thought that keeps recurring, though, is that direct control of Mecatol Rex seems like the best victory condition because it's central (thus equally achievable for all, all things being equal), thematic, and clear for everyone to see.  And if 'that guy' has been silently accumulating technology, ships, wealth, or whatever, with the hopes of achieving victory then he will have to actually use his accumulated power actively.

But then you come back to the problem of games like Munchkin and Uno - the first player to get close to winning almost always gets hammered (which isn't fun for them) and it's most often the player who flies under the radar for a while until the first few potential winners are hammered that actually wins....

...which is another problem for me to solve and discuss :).

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Loswaith

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #7 on: 16 May, 2011, 15:19:57 »
...
But to play devil's advocate here, specifically in the case of board games, there is technically no game if there isn't an end-point/victory condition, be it arbitrary or otherwise.
...

This isn't quite correct, the game exists whether it has an end point or victory condition, and it is still a game. An end point or victory condition simply is a purpose with which to limit the game to a set process or time limit. 

Many times I have played games where the determined victory condition was never achieved (and in theory didn't need to have one, as RPGs show us) but they would have still been a game.  We however, as players, expect some kind of predetermined ending before engaging in its undertaking.
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Kaneski

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #8 on: 27 January, 2012, 16:02:20 »
Having played a few games of Game of Thrones in the last couple of months, I'm zombifying the thread.

Now, in the context of victory conditions and the 'goal of the game', GoT's victory conditions are on the board and are integral to the game. The victory is achieved after the 10th turn, based on how many castles you hold. However, those castles also provide a ton of benefits throughout the game, so compared to say TI, the competition for castles is constant and overt. Which is fine. However, GoT suffers horribly from accurate prediction by players. Just about everything can be predicted up to half an hour ahead in the game, with reasonable accuracy. On 2nd game, we ran out of time, but 4/5 players agreed on what the next 2 turns would be, and which player would win if the game carried on. There was absolutely nothing anyone could do about it - the almost-winner got himself into an excellent position and noone could do anything about it. Some of it was luck, ofcourse, but it doesn't detract from the fact.


In relation to the VP arguments, late though my comments are, my argument would go something like this: "Play the game described in the rules, not your own imagined version of it." I say this, because I encounter this all the time from my housemate, where he doesn't agree with a rule, or an outcome, or a goal of a game (either board, paper or PC), but instead of playing the game according to the rules and goals, he walks away in huff, crying "BS, that's not what the game should be about."

To me, this is the equivalent of saying "I think 2 pairs should beat 3 of a kind in poker". If everyone agrees to the modification - fine, let's play by those rules. But in no other circumstance.

A game of TI is about getting the Victory Points, not about anything else. It certainly isn't about your position on the board. Or space conquest. Or a massive empire. Being about Victory Points, rather than tech, fleets, planets, etc... means there is scope for non-military gameplay, which is it's shtick. If you have a dominant position in TI (board wise), and still have not won, it is essentially because you were playing a different game to what the guy with the victory points was playing. And when the end comes, the guy who was playing TI, not conquer-the-galaxy will naturally win.

In this circumstance, I can only ever see disappointment between the expectations of a game pre- and post- purchase or first play. TI might seem like a conquer-the-galaxy game, and the disappointment might come from realising that it's not. But after that... nope.

Chimera and I saw similar behavior during our (his much longer) tour of Global Agenda. People who were playing "Kill/Death ratio" lost. People who died on the capture points FOR the capture points - won.

« Last Edit: 01 March, 2013, 21:40:44 by Kaneski »

Benesato

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Re: Board game goals
« Reply #9 on: 31 January, 2012, 18:13:07 »
Raising the dead is always good.

Starting at the end and working back:

Computer games are almost by definition completely driven (overtly so) by the game rules and not the theme.  There is no option in Global Agenda to move the damned base or amass a thousand agents and wipe out the enemy for good or anything thematic.  Thematically it may make sense to not sacrifice oneself to the cause of victory (since self-preservation, if at all possible, leaves you as an asset later for the cause).  On the other hand my experience of computer games is that 1% at most of players would actually be caring at all about the theme when they play.  They play the way they think is most effective, and are often naively convinced that kill ratios, DPS, etc are all-important measures of success.

Poker has no significant theme.  There's a vague notion of some royalty being in there, and that's about it.  Any rule-based theme of poker would be that higher numbers are worth more, and larger numbers of duplicates are worth more, so a pair of 10s would beat a pair of 6s (which is does), and three 10s would beat two 10s (which it does).  The notion of three 2s beating two 10s could throw a person off the first time they played, but games like Poker are rule-based games with no implied thematic way of winning other than those defined by the rules themselves.

A game like Twilight Imperium, however, has rich artwork, fancy ships, and oozes theme, just like the average roleplaying game does.  A comparision of a nearly theme-less game and a game that oozes theme (even if deep down in the rules it doesn't) is not quite fair I think.

I would argue that in a perfect game a new player could start playing according to the theme and it would only be a lack of experience and skill that would make him lose, rather than a deep disaparity between the heavily implied theme that he reasonably imagines to be consistent with the game rules and the actual game rules.  I came close to winning my first game of the Dune board game, with only a brief explanation of the rules, up against much more experienced players.  Many factors, including luck (and no doubt underestimating me) came into play, but had the rules been starkly different from the theme I wouldn't have stood a chance.  With abstract pieces and minus the heavy dose of theme Twilight Imperium may be an excellent game purely on the strength of its rules.  Without all that theme getting in the way for players like me the game would become about rules.  It is as a product that it fails, as that theme creates expectations of how the game should be played, and punishes players for 'falling for' those expectations that it was specifically designed to create.

Breaking everything down as pure rules and ignoring everything else aside is, to me, like reading a Wikipedia plot summary of a film and then not watching it because you know precisely what's going to happen.  The point of a movie is the experience, the suspension of disbelief, and the triggering the human experience rather than taking a hyper-analytical approach.  That's where roleplaying games transcend simple board games, even if the mechanics are largely the same, as they have a deeper level of interaction and a deep, thematic experience.  A thematic board game is itself a step up from a purely abstract board game.  Something like the Dune board game, though simple in game mechanics (and originally designed as a Roman empire game, I believe), creates a deeper experience for me than abstract games.  The same goes for computer games.  And while I enjoy both (I often enjoy abstract games more, actually, I suspect because they get them right more often and they don't have the pitfalls of something like Twilight Imperium), they are very different experiences.

Your point that people like me don't play Twilight Imperium according to the rules, but rather according to a (misleading) theme, which creates an imagined belief that a thematic path to victory is also a rule-based path to victory, is fair enough.  At some point we need to leave what we want from a game behind and accept what the game truly is (or modify it with expansions and/or house rules) if we are to gain any enjoyment from it.  That's a cold, hard reality about enjoying an existing game.  The same goes for most forms of entertainment.  We have to accept formulaic and predictable plots, mis-cast actors, excessive use of special effects, over-acting, and shoddy scripts if we are to enjoy more than the tiniest fraction of films and T.V. shows available.

But my failure to adapt myself to the game doesn't mean the fault lies with me.  It sucks for me, yes, and if I were to play game after game and fail to learn how to win I could understand you being frustrated with me.  But it also means the fault lies with the game in the first place if a new player is unable to have some degree of success playing it without having to pore over the rules for hours.  A new player is going to get destroyed against an experienced chess player, true, but in that case it is not a lack of understanding of the rules (with the possible exception of castling) but lack of experience.  Similarly, I own Skyrim but have not played it.  I could play it if I were willing to adopt the (greatly inferior) WASD control system, but I use ESDF and that makes playing it properly impossible.  You might think me obstinate and inflexible for not simply switching from my preferred control system to the common (inferior) WASD system, and that would be a matter of personal opinion.  Whatever our respective opinions, the fact is that Skyrim won't let me change the controls because it is significantly flawed and doesn't do what it should.  Skyrim is flawed, and no amount of debating the merits of our respective viewpoints on adapting to games would change that fact.

At the end of the day I still think victory points are a sloppy way to end a game.  As long as the victory points represent something abstract within an abstract game, or something thematic within a thematic game, they're probably the best option.  But if they are abstract within a thematic game, or thematically incongruous, then I think the game as a product is flawed.

Similarly, if Game of Thrones fairly often leaves players in a situation where victory for a certain player is inevitable and there's little other players can do then that is either a fault in the victory conditions, or (which I suspect is the case) a grave fault in the game mechanics and balance.  If a player's actions are easy to predict well in advance then it sounds to me a little simplistic.  If a game is deep and well-balanced then only through significantly greater skill should a player be able to reach a position of great dominance over all other players.  If it was not through superior skill then I suggest the game is flawed.  A flawed game with the right idea for good victory conditions doesn't in any way detract from the argument that more overt victory conditions might be best any more than Revoler detracts from good twists in movies being awesome.

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