Author Topic: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition  (Read 1217 times)

Kaneski

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
[SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« on: 17 February, 2014, 09:57:29 »
So. First session done, there's downtime coming.

I found the thread Chimera was talking about on shadowruntabletop forums about acquisitions. I also found the mission stuff which discusses it.

While I don't have a problem running a low-power campaign, the current application of the rules has severe problems, and certain groups will abide by the mission rules and have a much wider access to gear.

So... the rules as they currently stand - by combination of Mission primer, Core rulebook, and Forum.

1. Gear can be acquired during downtime (Primer)
2. Acquiring gear must use the purchased hits rules - 4 dice = 1 hit, rounded down. (Primer)
3. Otherwise, rules on p. 418 are followed as normal. (Core book, Primer, Forums)
4. Contacts use their connection rating instead of Charisma, and Loyalty instead of negotiation (Primer/Forum).
5. It... seems that forums think that connection gets added twice because of p. 418, but the line reads "with their Connection rating serving as a bonus to their Social Limit" (emphasis added). So, pretty sure forum reading of this, where they use 'Dice pool = Connection + Connection + Loyalty' is incorrect. I've posted this, waiting for reply. (Core book, Forums)
6. Characters can use their own Charisma/Negotiate to look for gear. (Core book, Forums)
7. Teamwork tests appear to be allowed (Forums)

The problems
So, there are 2 problems that come out of this. The first is usefulness of contacts, the second is absurd gear power differences between groups in Missions.

Usefulness of contacts. The prime reason to have fixer contacts, both thematically and mechanically, is to have a better access to fancy stuff than you otherwise could. The exception is any Face character archetype - they have their own ability to get stuff. But fixers, marketers, vendors, etc... are there to help you get stuff.

The stated reason for ignoring the contact stats is "You might not always know the Charisma and Negotiate ratings of your contact, so all contacts use their Connection for Charisma, and Loyalty for Negotiate" (In Primer,  I believe). This equates all contacts across the board - a loyal friend mechanic is as good at getting deltaware as a dedicated cybertech.

Further, if I'm right about the Connection bonus to Social Limit only - that means the maximum number of opening dice a contact can roll is... 7. Given that's their maximum opening karma expenditure. 7 dice buys you... 1 hit. 1 hit for gear acquisition. This in turn means the maximum gear availability rating you can acquire is also 7.

Even if I'm wrong about the bonus to Connection - a Connection 6, Loyalty 1 contact will get 13 dice, which buys 3 hits. This means highest gear availability rating of 15. That's decent, but only if Conn+Conn+Loy is the way to go, which I don't think it is...

There's also the issue of cost affecting time, but that's relatively minor compared to the availability thing.


The second problem is more abstract, and doesn't really affect us (I don't think), because we're a self-contained group. The ostensible reason for enforcing the 'buy hits' rule and homogenising contacts is so that characters playing Missions are reasonably interchangeable and at roughly equal power and gear level.

However, in the forum post about this topic, a couple of groups posted that they have a Face archetype, with some 17-20 dice in combined Charisma, augments, and Negotiate. It's their thing - comparable to Croton's Matrix dice pool or Red's Attack pool. It's not even super, super-focused. It's just what their character does. The result, however, is that a group with that Face has easy access to Availability Rating up to 19 or 23. They literally stated in their forums post - they're getting Krime Cannons after the first run.

The abstract problem is that restricting to buy hits and homogeneous contacts means any group with a Face will break the gear curve, compared to ours. Again - the problem is hypothetical, since we're self-contained, but it serves to show a serious, mega flaw in the enforced buy hits, homogeneous contacts rules.

I don't really have a solution that doesn't include abandoning the missions rules - Bull himself has responded in the Gear thread and made no corrections to anything I just recited. We'll see about my bonus to limit post - maybe that will shake something loose.

This is more of a heads-up to Loswaith, who was asking about cyberware. Mind you, my situation is equally hopeless for heavy weapon mounts, or anything else serious to upgrade my Bus.

Also, if I'm right about Connection thing - forget getting any gear over availability rating 7.

Loswaith

  • Administrator
  • Incessant
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Meh!
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #1 on: 17 February, 2014, 12:47:32 »
Interesting so in essence Laughing Mage may actually be the guy getting all our gear for us rather than our various contacts.

Seems that they also cripple their own contacts, especially silverleaf and andrews, given how high their negoitation skills go compared to their ratings otherwise.

Thanks for the heads up and keep us in the loop.
- Loswaith
Henceforth Mortal, Remember...

Kaneski

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #2 on: 17 February, 2014, 13:03:48 »
Heh, then Mage won't have any downtime spare for his own gear or training :D

Chimera

  • Incessant
  • *****
  • Posts: 316
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #3 on: 17 February, 2014, 14:40:12 »
OK...

Well, I am preparing a forum post that summarizes all things downtime for next session.

Yes, I am using the missions rules for contacts. For various reasons (all fixers are Elves right ;)... ) And yes they do get equalized in terms of dice pools.

In terms of acquisition the test will be (cut from my summary):
Contacts may purchase items for you in downtime only. These purchases use the 'buy hits' rules as per the FAQ. Contact skills are not used as per the FAQ. Test is Connections + Connections (pg.388) + Loyalty [no limit applied].

Generally this will mean you can aquire availability 12 items with a 5/2 contact out of the gate at double wait time.

Players can bypass this, I will be allowing a pre-run edge enabled test period for this stuff. This will happen at game start and edge used starts the run used. This will lock out downtime time, I'm still working this out. So yeah you won't be able to rely on one person to get all items as they won't get downtime for themself.

Yes teamwork can be used, with all parties being downtime locked for the delivery period.

Also, how to put it. We run our own session, so if you want something then warn me in advance, work your contacts and roleplay it and it may come about. Also, contact ratings go up over play, so don't rush.

So to use my own bold text, RELAX, my focus is a fun game, if something doesn't work we will notice in time and we can adjust to suit.

Kaneski

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #4 on: 17 February, 2014, 16:34:05 »
Bold text is awesome. It's like caps on steroids!

Like I said - don't mind playing with these rules. But it just seems like a hard cap on gear rating would achieve the low tech goal a lot better. Plus something like... 2 Karma = + 1 Availability on an item. If you want to advance via gear purchase - Karma can override the cap.

Anyway - thanks for p. 388, my worry is appeased. Damn rulebook.

For future ref - my first downtime will be celebrating and 'making it rain' at the Landing Strip. Because Ork.
« Last Edit: 17 February, 2014, 17:37:00 by Kaneski »

Chimera

  • Incessant
  • *****
  • Posts: 316
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #5 on: 17 February, 2014, 17:47:02 »
Indeed it is :)

Glad you don't mind ;)

Look, not going to go into alternate ways of doing this, given I actually prefer the current rule.

Your main concern seems to be the utility of contacts, I will consider how this applies. I'm not concerned so much with Missions stated goal, just our groups fun. I want contacts to feel unique within this system... This is linked to why I specifically stated the contacts uses pre-game btw (I will be documenting this). I am currently tossing around some ideas, but they are in early digestion right now. I plan to post something soon, at least before the weekend.

I don't see this impacting Loswaith too much at this stage using these rules. The most unavailable things tend to sit around 20, and as you said you can get 12-15 even with starting contacts, cost seems to be the main issue. I think he said he wanted eyes, level 3 is av-9. That's in the one week category for cost - can easily get alpha eyes in 1 week using Simon (which does not even use player downtime). Cost for eyes should be covered in 2 adventures or so. The sourcing contact has links to Saeder-Krupp (Assumption), wiki'ing shows - S-K covers all aspects of cyberware, but lags behind the other companies in terms of manufacturing and research. They are the number-one manufacturer of skill-wires and wired reflexes. So I would place alpha-ware as definitely possible with this contact. And he has a Doc contact :) So again, no real issues at all here.

I'm not planning to be stingy, or overly generous. So I want to make sure players are aware of the Cash-for-Karma (and K-f-C) rules in my write-up to help out.

Right now, I just want to close with a comment re-the Krime Cannon group. Nothing I have seen in current missions or the intent of missions really warrants assault cannon wielding groups. Maybe one assault cannon... Joke :lol: Its massive overkill, heck most availability 12 items are overkill... Now i'm not saying not to shoot for them, just don't think overkill will solve all your problems. It solves most :) Just not all.

Also, if you see an assault cannon in the game grab it, and get it ownership changed. Nice pay-day that, either as a keep or a sell.

Kaneski

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #6 on: 17 February, 2014, 17:55:23 »
Not at all. My contacts will still be used for repairs, mods and theft via ownership change :) My main concern was seemingly ineffective rules. Given that at least 3 people in the group are pushing 12AV (eg autosofts are my lifeblood), but cheap items,  I was worried that limiting to 7, just because we didn't have a face would be too hard a blow out of nowhere. p. 388 clears that up to 12ish.

Re krime cannon - don't want it. But if it's Missions legal via specializing, the contacts restriction would be ineffective. And if you see a krime cannon and go "think of the loot!", nice knowing you :D

Crotonhurst

  • Indentured
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #7 on: 17 February, 2014, 19:19:42 »
I hope to hell if I see a Krime Cannon it is NOT because it is pointed at us!
The Flesh is Weak

Kaneski

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #8 on: 17 February, 2014, 19:29:30 »
I'll be ok. The bus will protect me!

Loswaith

  • Administrator
  • Incessant
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Meh!
Re: [SR5] Downtime & Gear Acquisition
« Reply #9 on: 19 February, 2014, 15:51:00 »
The concern is more the homogenisation of contacts by doing that.  For example a Gun Runner with contacts 4 is worse at getting guns than a fixer/talismonger with contacts rating of 5.

Ironically a contact with poor negoitation skills but high contact rating is better at getting stuff than a character like Silverleaf who has all the skills for gaining information.

Sure it doesnt impact us, but definatly an odd choice of ways to handle contacts.


As an aisde its unlikely Riven will be looking at cyberware above about rating 15 anyway (rating 3 for most enhancements sits around that).   The eyes are a major point for him though as thats the main cause of most of his gremlins, as just about everything else is connected to those in some form or manner.  Internal coms and the noise dont help either but if I can mount a scrubber program in the coms that should take care of that issue.
- Loswaith
Henceforth Mortal, Remember...