Author Topic: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?  (Read 520 times)

Loswaith

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Just a thread for things I've been tinkering around with for ACKs.

Competent Thief skills:
As it stands the classes are fairly competent at their skills, that is aside from the poor old thief skills (something D&D always suffered from).  Most start the same chances as everyone else (or even worse than natural demi-humans) and are prone to many failures to start out.  Instead of using the thief table provided the proposal is to use the following.

Starting values for a first level thief are as follows:
Open Locks: 14+
Find/Remove Traps: 14+
Pick Pockets: 13+
Move Silently: 13+
Climb Walls: 6+
Hide in Shadows: 15+
Hear Noise: 14+

Progression for Climb Walls follows the table (that shows competence already), while the other skills reduce one point per level gained. (thus a 5th level Thief would have skills of 10+/10+/9+/9+/4+/11+/10+, each one (other than climb walls) 4 points lower than starting level).

This would replace any progression of thief skills gained by other classes as well (thus working with custom classes).

Traps and locks can be re-attempted unless the character fails the roll by 5 or more (a first level thief rolling 9 or less to pick a lock for example).  If this is the case the Thief simply doesn't have the knowledge to 'figure it out', and cannot attempt that individual trap or lock again until their skills improve.

All other rules to thief skills apply as normal.
« Last Edit: 09 June, 2017, 23:04:36 by Loswaith »
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Chimera

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #1 on: 14 June, 2017, 09:21:54 »
Yeah, thieves are in an interesting (read bad) place.

I like your idea a lot, and I do know that this was covered in the heroic fantasy book. So I will read that first before I settle on anything house rule ish.

My only other question would be the impact on other sub thief classes, but I have not looked into it.


Loswaith

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #2 on: 14 June, 2017, 13:31:15 »
It makes the other classes thief skills a little better, but again all thief skills suffered the problem (somewhat incompetent when using them), just mostly for the thief who had few other options.

Making the adjustments tied directly makes it a bit more like many other proficiencies as well, in that they grow per level.  Also if a custom class gets a thief skill at a later level it will naturally always be worse off for them than one class starting with the same skill, which avoids the whole "as thief of your/X level".  All in all the reduction per level idea (that wasn't mine) seems to fit across the board as it only interacts with two basics all characters have; level and when the thief skill is gained.

Heroic fantasy adds dexterity modifier, encumbrance factors and gear (many nice tools in that lot) as modifiers to the skills themselves.  I cant recall if they were going with the static values for the skills though, or that was just a forum discussion.  As well as a few changes to how they handle the skills, like I gave above :)
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Loswaith

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #3 on: 14 June, 2017, 15:21:47 »
Imbue Projectile: (I don't really care for that name but an alternative escapes me for now)
Mages (and any arcane 4 custom class) has the ability to imbue thrown weapons with small amounts of their own power when they touch them (the magic fades rapidly so only the mage gains the benefit).  Mages can then add their intelligence bonus to the attack roll (but not damage) of thrown weapons (or thrown sling) instead of dexterity.  The thrown weapon has double the normal range (having been imbued with some levitation magic) and count as magic for purposes of things immune to being hit with normal weapons.

- essentially this gives mages something to do in combat when they have few spells. As they increase in levels they gain more spells and are likely to use Imbue Projectile less and less in favour of those spells.  Likewise the low attack rating progression of mages makes this a less viable option as they increase in levels.


Oh and An alternative use for henchman slots
« Last Edit: 15 June, 2017, 19:35:11 by Loswaith »
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Chimera

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #4 on: 16 June, 2017, 06:58:49 »
Yeah, I had a look at heroic fantasy and was like a bit meh.
Adding Astro urges back in makes them more important, and sorta breaks the game concept that attributtes don't matter so much.
This blog had an interesting idea that is percolating in my brain
https://micahblackburn.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/house-rulesthieves-suck-solutions-part-2/

I need to read my more one this.
ACKS is true to OSR, and OSR thiefs suck at low levels, to the point of incompetence. Yes mages suck with one spell. But oh the power of that spell!

Chimera

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #5 on: 16 June, 2017, 07:01:04 »
Oh, that imbue projectile thing is an interesting idea. I think Out Mage is feeling the low level burn a bit :) I would be happy to run with that.

Edit as I had a thought - this should be a free proficiency given to mages. Other sub wizards don't need it. It's like the Prestidigitation ability.

Chimera

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #6 on: 16 June, 2017, 07:28:05 »
Ok, so the alternate thief rule from that blog can be summarised as this:

Thief skills automatically succeed (do not need to throw for success) when not under duress. This normally should be interpreted as having a full turn available to achieve the action.

For example:

You want to pick the lock of a door.
If you have 10 minutes you can make it happen. You and your party are under attack by orcs, roll the dice!

You want to sneak through a room with six arguing orcs.
If you take your time, moving with the flow of the conversation it takes 10 minutes to move that 20 ft.
You dash through the room moving quickly from shadow to shadow like that guy in oceans 12, roll the dice!

You want to club a slippery wall.
Taking your time you asend without incidend.
Under fire from the orcs chasing you after your dance moves failed above, roll the dice!

Problems, maybe this makes some of the thief proficiencies that give bonuses less important?

This resonates with me as it's similar to my traveller rule we used in battletech, being if you have a skill don't check unless its interesting or time is short.

I should add this is both more generous than your suggestion above, but also more harsh in situations when you might need it the most.

Loswaith

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #7 on: 16 June, 2017, 18:05:24 »
That works. 
  One of the concepts I read was akin to that however, the Thief did a roll anyway and based on how good or bad the roll compared to the thief's skill, determined the time it took, though if they significantly failed a task it would cause 'complications'.

So you got that When picking a lock: "Hmm, 37 seconds, I must be slipping" effect.
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Chimera

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #8 on: 22 June, 2017, 07:39:41 »
Ok, this is funny, in a reversal of view way.

4-5 years later, the same guy who wrote the thiefs take time idea wrote your idea Los :)

http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/paying-dues-thieves.html?m=1

I tend to not want to change the percentages as all the tables shift and I'm lazy :)

But yeah interesting to see him flip on it.

Loswaith

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #9 on: 22 June, 2017, 10:44:07 »
Heh, basically the same thought I had about it all in all, just going into more detail. :)

At the end of the day having the takes time is fine, there are enough counters to thief skills that it doesn't really matter while also not having to worry about the minutia aspects that go along with it.
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Loswaith

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #10 on: 29 June, 2017, 15:47:05 »
ACKs without Ability Scores:

ACKs tends to minimise the need for ability score bonuses compared to other systems, as such I have been considering rules without them.

Not much really needs to be changed and I have a few possible ideas.  These generally revolve around that in many cases characters overall end up with about a +2 bonus across the board on average (this presumes the 5 character start up).  This gives some modifications but not really a huge number.

Prime Factors:
This essentially works on the basis that a character is better than average in what the character does.  Essentially characters get an equivlent of +2 across their prime requsites to determine the alterations of that ability score to other values.  Thus a fighter would gain +2 to melee hit and damage, +8 to open doors and +2 stone to overloaded (all the things strength tends to add).  A mage gains +2 general proficiencies, +2 languages and +2 repertoire spells per level (ie. bonuses +2 intelligence would give). While a Spellsword would gain +1 to melee hit and damage, +4 to open doors, +1 stone to overloaded, +1 general proficieny +1 language and +1 repertoire spell per level (all the things +1 strength and +1 intelligence would modify).
The downside to this however is that classes become rather homoginised in their core aspects where ability scores are concerned and still have some minor link to ability scores.

Random Factors:
Similar to Prime Factors, this works on the basis that characters get the alterations to other stats that an ability score bonus would otherwise give.  However a character rolls a d6 twice, and gains the equivlent of +1 to that ability score for the derived values. 1. Strength, 2. Intelligence, 3. Wisdom, 4. Dexterity, 5. Constitution and 6. Charisma.
Thus if a character rolled a 2 and a 6, they would get +1 general proficency, + 1 language, (+1 repotiore per level), +1 to reaction rolls and 1 additional henchman they can employ.
The downside to this is it has some link still to ability scores.

Traits:
My preferred method however is traits.  This gives a small package of bonuses to the various alternate stats often modified by ability scores. A character rolls for these twice and the trait bonuses can stack (or not if that is desired).
As part of this though arcane casters miss a little in their repertoire (often having an intelligence bonus), thus Mages (and other pure arcane casters) gain 2 additional repertoire spells per level, while hybrids (like the spellsword and nightblade) gain 1 additional repertoire spells per level.

Traits: (roll a d12)
 1. Alert: +1 to avoid surprise and +2 to Hear Noise or other awareness throws
 2. Deft: +1 to Armour Class and +1 to initiative
 3. Hardy: +1 to hit point per level and +2 bonus to poison and death savings throws
 4. Intuitive: +1 to avoid surprise and +2 bonus to savings throws vs spells or magic items
 5. Nimble: +1 to Armour Class and +2 bonus to breath and blast savings throws
 6. Perceptive: +1 to hit for missile attacks and +2 when searching (eg, traps, secret doors, tracking and so forth)
 7. Prowess: +1 to hit for melee and missile attacks
 8. Resilient: +1 bonus to all savings throws and +2 to Mortal Wound rolls
 9. Savvy: +1 general proficiency, +1 language and +2 to any lore or knowledge throws
10. Strong: +1 to melee damage, +4 to open doors and +1 overloaded encumbrance
11. Suave: +1 to reaction rolls and +2 to maximum Henchman
12. Willful: +2 bonus to savings throws vs charm, fear, illusions and resisting intimidation or any other composure throws

Additional:
Adept: +2 Cleaves and +1 level for spell casting effects
Bulwark: +1 Armour Class and +1 hit point per level
Heirloom: You start with a magic or special item of considerable value (discuss with GM as to specifics)
Linguist: +1 to reaction rolls when you speak, +4 languages
Lucky: Twice per day you can re-roll any failed Throw, but must take the result of the second roll.
Talented: +1 Proficiency from any list

Edit: Cleaned it up for better use/reading.  Adept is the old Warrior born, though still not sure the term really invokes a skill at arms... Swapping Prowess and Adept names as they feel better that way around.
While talented I went with just one proficiency from any list rather than limiting it
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« Last Edit: 15 September, 2017, 13:04:09 by Loswaith »
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Loswaith

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Re: [ACKs] Tinkering with ACKs... not like you're surprised right?
« Reply #11 on: 14 September, 2017, 17:27:26 »
Weapon Properties:
Within ACKs there is no real difference between weapon types and their damage (much like warhammer this is a good thing).  Inspired by a post over at the forums for ACKs I decided to add the concept here too (even taking some options).

While they are generally for a type of weapon (given in brackets) they could be magic properties too.
Balanced: (??) +1 Cleave, even if you don't have any
Bashing: (Mace or Hammers) +1 to hit metal (mail or better) or exoskeletal armours (or similar heavy armours)
Counter: (Flails) Ignore the targets AC bonus for a shield
Defensive: (Shields) +1 AC when wearing mail or lighter armours
Impact: (Axes) Roll two damage dice and pick the highest result
Parry: (Swords) +1 AC to one melee opponent per round
Precise: (Daggers or Swords) Deals 1d8 damage to unaware targets (like when backstabbing)
Quick: (Daggers) +1 to initiative
« Last Edit: 15 September, 2017, 20:34:11 by Loswaith »
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